"One is that Hamas is uniquely evil; they point out that Hamas has a history of suicide bombing civilian populations, or using their own civilians as “human shields”. But such arguments should not be relevant as to whether Palestinian infants should be starved; such arguments can only be compelling if a person feels the “human shields” that Israel will inevitably kill to get to the supposed targets are not worth the effort to keep alive."
Israel is not starving Palestinian infants. It is fighting a war against Hamas, and the unintended byproduct of such a war is that civilians suffer. "War is hell" is not always a selfish rationalization for barbarism. There is no way to destroy Hamas, in its current form, without exposing civilians to harm. And leaving a genocidal death cult terror state to continue to organize on your borders and launch mass murder-rape-hostage-taking expeditions is untenable.
"I'd wager the same people who are fond of the war is hell argument would not have expressed the same sentiment after the bombing of Pearl Harbor."
The Japanese struck a US naval base without warning. While violating the Hague Convention, this wasn't an unprecedented military move.
Had they disembarked from their planes and went about raping and murdering American civilians before carrying back men, women, and children to Japan as hostages, Pearl Harbor would be regarded as less of a humiliating defeat and shocking blow in war, and more of a grotesque crime against humanity perpetrated by an evil regime. Kind of like October 7th.
"But Hamas is a monster—so why would anyone expect to have a monster care about innocent infants?"
This is exactly why Israel is morally and practically correct to ignore people like you and proceed with the total and unrelenting destruction of Hamas.
There is no peace to be had with Hamas. They love death more than they love life. They want to have more innocent Palestinians martyrs. Every tunnel and rocket firing position embedded in a school or mosque or apartment building is another chance for them to kill Jews and Palestinians alike.
There is no moral symmetry between Hamas and the IDF or the state of Israel.
The idea that Israel uses human shields is laughable, because Hamas would never be deterred by human shields. We saw how Hamas treated civilians on October 7th. Or maybe you haven't been paying attention?
Israel constructs bomb shelters for its children who cannot play at their local playground or soccer field without the threat of Hamas and Hezbollah rockets raining down on them with only a few seconds of warning. Hamas builds tunnels for its fighters under hospitals, schools, and apartment buildings.
Israel spends $$$ on expensive missile defense systems, rather than cheaply counter-striking to eliminate the threat, all because they value innocent Palestinian lives. A Jewish doctor operated to save Sinwar's life from a brain tumor while he was in prison for murder. After he got exchanged along with hundreds of other terrorists for a single Israeli hostage, he thanked Israel for their moral decency by launching the greatest one-day war crime against the Jewish people since the Holocaust.
"And, after all, since the West Bank and Gaza have been occupied by Israel,"
Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza a long time ago. Evicted the few Jews remaining there. Exhumed Jewish cemeteries. They thought it would "buy quiet" and promote normalization and moderation. In hindsight, that looks like a foolish idea.
It is hard to imagine a clearer distinction of civilization vs barbarism on display here. Hamas enjoys vast popular support among Palestinians, no doubt nurtured by the legacy of Soviet anti-Zionist propaganda and the fusion of Islamist jihad with Palestinian nationalism.
Hard to course correct when UNRWA schools and Hamas Mickey Mouse TV propaganda has children in its grips from the very beginning. Iran and Qatar will keep the money flowing and smile as more Palestinians die and Israel is forced into a perpetual war for survival.
I look forward to the total destruction of Hamas, and the discrediting of everyone who would argue for a moral equivalence between Hamas and the IDF. On the other side of that, much like the total humiliation and destruction of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan, we might have the possibility of peace.
"Israel is not starving Palestinian infants. It is fighting a war against Hamas, and the unintended byproduct of such a war is that civilians suffer. "War is hell" is not always a selfish rationalization for barbarism. There is no way to destroy Hamas, in its current form, without exposing civilians to harm. And leaving a genocidal death cult terror state to continue to organize on your borders and launch mass murder-rape-hostage-taking expeditions is untenable."
There is a huge chasm between unintended civilian suffering and systematically starving millions of people, wantonly bombing densely populated areas, destroying civilian and health infrastructure, all while making genocidal statements. The statements of various politicians, soldiers, and Israeli public leaders clearly demonstrate that the death of infants is intentional. The apartheid state of Israel which used ethnic cleansing to establish its dominion over Palestine does not have the right to starve millions of people in the process of trying to destroy Hamas, a militant revolutionary organization, that Israel itself cultivated. Regardless of how how you characterize Hamas, the apartheid state of Israel does not have the right to carry out a genocide against innocent civilians to destroy it. Hamas though is not a state, nor is Gaza, which is affirmed by both Israel and the United States.
Furthermore, mass murder-rape-hostage-taking-ethnic-cleansing is what the Israeli state has been doing since beginning its occupation. Yet I still do not support doing to Israelis what Israel is doing to Gazans.
And Israel certainly has the ability to destroy Hamas without carrying out a genocide against Palestinians, it would just have to risk the lives of more Israelis. And especially because it is an apartheid state that even cultivated Hamas, that is what it would have to do to actually be moral and demonstrate that they actually care about Palestinian lives rather than just vengeance and expanding Israeli territory. They lack the imagination about what else to do besides genocide because like you they only care about Israeli lives and not Palestinian lives.
"There is no peace to be had with Hamas. They love death more than they love life. They want to have more innocent Palestinians martyrs. Every tunnel and rocket firing position embedded in a school or mosque or apartment building is another chance for them to kill Jews and Palestinians alike.
There is no moral symmetry between Hamas and the IDF or the state of Israel."
This is correct. There is no moral symmetry between Hamas and the state of Israel, because Israel actually cultivated Hamas, which makes Israel responsible for the monster and what it does and alone makes Israel worse, never mind the fact that Israel is an apartheid state. Israel has no right to kill one innocent civilian in its quest to kill Hamas soldiers. Hamas was cultivated by Israel precisely because Hamas does not want peace and neither does Israel. Israel wants all of Palestine and peace would be an impediment to that. Benjamin Netanyahu is recorded on video explaining just that. I recommend you start reading chapter four which goes over this.
"Israel constructs bomb shelters for its children who cannot play at their local playground or soccer field without the threat of Hamas and Hezbollah rockets raining down on them with only a few seconds of warning. Hamas builds tunnels for its fighters under hospitals, schools, and apartment buildings"
Israel is an apartheid state. It established itself through ethnic cleansing. It does not have the moral high ground. Israel does not have the right to murder civilians to protect its apartheid state in order to get Hamas no matter where they are. Israel cultivated Hamas, it has no right to sacrifice innocent Palestinians to go after Hamas. Israel is an apartheid state. It does not have the right to kill innocent Palestinians in retaliation against Hamas, a resistance group fighting against the apartheid state which was established through ethnic cleansing and is being maintained through a genocide. Israel has a moral duty to dissolve itself as an apartheid state. Holding Hamas accountable for any atrocities is a separate issue, and none of those atrocities can be used as justification for harm done to innocent Palestinians.
"Israel spends $$$ on expensive missile defense systems, rather than cheaply counter-striking to eliminate the threat, all because they value innocent Palestinian lives"
Israel takes tax money from the United States and uses our money to defend its apartheid state. Israel killed thousands of Palestinians before October 7th in various slaughter campaigns that Israeli politicians have called mowing the lawn. Israel cares about international opinion and particularly the United States support of their apartheid state. Which means they must be careful about killing too many Palestinians and torturing too many Palestinians because otherwise people like you wouldn't be as susceptible to believe and spread the pernicious and erroneous propaganda that you are right now.
"After he got exchanged along with hundreds of other terrorists for a single Israeli hostage, he thanked Israel for their moral decency by launching the greatest one-day war crime against the Jewish people since the Holocaust"
If Israel had moral decency it would not have established an apartheid state after multiple ethnic cleansing operations. No Palestinian owes the state of Israel any gratitude for seventy five years of subjugation and humiliation.
"Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza a long time ago. Evicted the few Jews remaining there. Exhumed Jewish cemeteries. They thought it would "buy quiet" and promote normalization and moderation. In hindsight, that looks like a foolish idea."
Israel never left Gaza completely. It continued to have effective control, including control over airspace and water. There's possibly no place on earth more surveilled than Gaza. Which is why the Israeli government knew the attacks on October 7th were going to happen before they did. They had blueprints exactly of what they were going to do. And not only they didn't stop it, but they permitted a festival where Hamas was planning to attack.
Israel has been trying to get all of Palestine since before it carried out its ethnic cleansing in 1948. For any action taken by Israel, it is usually safe to bet that it is motivated by a desire to conquer all of Palestine. You are providing the propaganda explanation. From hindsight, given the overtures to annex Gaza now, the idea makes sense. You seem to want to assign good intentions to the Israeli state when history has demonstrated that good intentions are rare for it.
"It is hard to imagine a clearer distinction of civilization vs barbarism on display here. Hamas enjoys vast popular support among Palestinians, no doubt nurtured by the legacy of Soviet anti-Zionist propaganda and the fusion of Islamist jihad with Palestinian nationalism."
Israel has never been civilized, and its current genocide is one of the most hideous displays of barbarism in the 21st century. One of the reasons that Hamas enjoys significant popular support is because Israel itself cultivated it.
"Hard to course correct when UNRWA schools and Hamas Mickey Mouse TV propaganda has children in its grips from the very beginning. Iran and Qatar will keep the money flowing and smile as more Palestinians die and Israel is forced into a perpetual war for survival"
And Israel helped that money flow so that Hamas could create that mickey mouse propaganda and make it even less possible for a two state solution to materialize.
"I look forward to the total destruction of Hamas, and the discrediting of everyone who would argue for a moral equivalence between Hamas and the IDF. On the other side of that, much like the total humiliation and destruction of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan, we might have the possibility of peace."
Comparing Hamas, a militia that needed to resort to hang gliders, to Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan is quite ridiculous. And unfortunately for Israel it's genocide is finally awakening much of the world and the people of the United States to its abominable regime. And as information becomes freely available on the internet the propaganda that you are regurgitating will lose its power and so will Israel.
"One is that Hamas is uniquely evil; they point out that Hamas has a history of suicide bombing civilian populations, or using their own civilians as “human shields”. But such arguments should not be relevant as to whether Palestinian infants should be starved; such arguments can only be compelling if a person feels the “human shields” that Israel will inevitably kill to get to the supposed targets are not worth the effort to keep alive."
Israel is not starving Palestinian infants. It is fighting a war against Hamas, and the unintended byproduct of such a war is that civilians suffer. "War is hell" is not always a selfish rationalization for barbarism. There is no way to destroy Hamas, in its current form, without exposing civilians to harm. And leaving a genocidal death cult terror state to continue to organize on your borders and launch mass murder-rape-hostage-taking expeditions is untenable.
"I'd wager the same people who are fond of the war is hell argument would not have expressed the same sentiment after the bombing of Pearl Harbor."
The Japanese struck a US naval base without warning. While violating the Hague Convention, this wasn't an unprecedented military move.
Had they disembarked from their planes and went about raping and murdering American civilians before carrying back men, women, and children to Japan as hostages, Pearl Harbor would be regarded as less of a humiliating defeat and shocking blow in war, and more of a grotesque crime against humanity perpetrated by an evil regime. Kind of like October 7th.
"But Hamas is a monster—so why would anyone expect to have a monster care about innocent infants?"
This is exactly why Israel is morally and practically correct to ignore people like you and proceed with the total and unrelenting destruction of Hamas.
There is no peace to be had with Hamas. They love death more than they love life. They want to have more innocent Palestinians martyrs. Every tunnel and rocket firing position embedded in a school or mosque or apartment building is another chance for them to kill Jews and Palestinians alike.
There is no moral symmetry between Hamas and the IDF or the state of Israel.
The idea that Israel uses human shields is laughable, because Hamas would never be deterred by human shields. We saw how Hamas treated civilians on October 7th. Or maybe you haven't been paying attention?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAFDI63yvNQ
Israel constructs bomb shelters for its children who cannot play at their local playground or soccer field without the threat of Hamas and Hezbollah rockets raining down on them with only a few seconds of warning. Hamas builds tunnels for its fighters under hospitals, schools, and apartment buildings.
Israel spends $$$ on expensive missile defense systems, rather than cheaply counter-striking to eliminate the threat, all because they value innocent Palestinian lives. A Jewish doctor operated to save Sinwar's life from a brain tumor while he was in prison for murder. After he got exchanged along with hundreds of other terrorists for a single Israeli hostage, he thanked Israel for their moral decency by launching the greatest one-day war crime against the Jewish people since the Holocaust.
"And, after all, since the West Bank and Gaza have been occupied by Israel,"
Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza a long time ago. Evicted the few Jews remaining there. Exhumed Jewish cemeteries. They thought it would "buy quiet" and promote normalization and moderation. In hindsight, that looks like a foolish idea.
It is hard to imagine a clearer distinction of civilization vs barbarism on display here. Hamas enjoys vast popular support among Palestinians, no doubt nurtured by the legacy of Soviet anti-Zionist propaganda and the fusion of Islamist jihad with Palestinian nationalism.
Hard to course correct when UNRWA schools and Hamas Mickey Mouse TV propaganda has children in its grips from the very beginning. Iran and Qatar will keep the money flowing and smile as more Palestinians die and Israel is forced into a perpetual war for survival.
I look forward to the total destruction of Hamas, and the discrediting of everyone who would argue for a moral equivalence between Hamas and the IDF. On the other side of that, much like the total humiliation and destruction of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan, we might have the possibility of peace.
"Israel is not starving Palestinian infants. It is fighting a war against Hamas, and the unintended byproduct of such a war is that civilians suffer. "War is hell" is not always a selfish rationalization for barbarism. There is no way to destroy Hamas, in its current form, without exposing civilians to harm. And leaving a genocidal death cult terror state to continue to organize on your borders and launch mass murder-rape-hostage-taking expeditions is untenable."
There is a huge chasm between unintended civilian suffering and systematically starving millions of people, wantonly bombing densely populated areas, destroying civilian and health infrastructure, all while making genocidal statements. The statements of various politicians, soldiers, and Israeli public leaders clearly demonstrate that the death of infants is intentional. The apartheid state of Israel which used ethnic cleansing to establish its dominion over Palestine does not have the right to starve millions of people in the process of trying to destroy Hamas, a militant revolutionary organization, that Israel itself cultivated. Regardless of how how you characterize Hamas, the apartheid state of Israel does not have the right to carry out a genocide against innocent civilians to destroy it. Hamas though is not a state, nor is Gaza, which is affirmed by both Israel and the United States.
Furthermore, mass murder-rape-hostage-taking-ethnic-cleansing is what the Israeli state has been doing since beginning its occupation. Yet I still do not support doing to Israelis what Israel is doing to Gazans.
And Israel certainly has the ability to destroy Hamas without carrying out a genocide against Palestinians, it would just have to risk the lives of more Israelis. And especially because it is an apartheid state that even cultivated Hamas, that is what it would have to do to actually be moral and demonstrate that they actually care about Palestinian lives rather than just vengeance and expanding Israeli territory. They lack the imagination about what else to do besides genocide because like you they only care about Israeli lives and not Palestinian lives.
"There is no peace to be had with Hamas. They love death more than they love life. They want to have more innocent Palestinians martyrs. Every tunnel and rocket firing position embedded in a school or mosque or apartment building is another chance for them to kill Jews and Palestinians alike.
There is no moral symmetry between Hamas and the IDF or the state of Israel."
This is correct. There is no moral symmetry between Hamas and the state of Israel, because Israel actually cultivated Hamas, which makes Israel responsible for the monster and what it does and alone makes Israel worse, never mind the fact that Israel is an apartheid state. Israel has no right to kill one innocent civilian in its quest to kill Hamas soldiers. Hamas was cultivated by Israel precisely because Hamas does not want peace and neither does Israel. Israel wants all of Palestine and peace would be an impediment to that. Benjamin Netanyahu is recorded on video explaining just that. I recommend you start reading chapter four which goes over this.
https://minorityreport.substack.com/i/143581758/israel-from-the-river-to-the-sea
"Israel constructs bomb shelters for its children who cannot play at their local playground or soccer field without the threat of Hamas and Hezbollah rockets raining down on them with only a few seconds of warning. Hamas builds tunnels for its fighters under hospitals, schools, and apartment buildings"
Israel is an apartheid state. It established itself through ethnic cleansing. It does not have the moral high ground. Israel does not have the right to murder civilians to protect its apartheid state in order to get Hamas no matter where they are. Israel cultivated Hamas, it has no right to sacrifice innocent Palestinians to go after Hamas. Israel is an apartheid state. It does not have the right to kill innocent Palestinians in retaliation against Hamas, a resistance group fighting against the apartheid state which was established through ethnic cleansing and is being maintained through a genocide. Israel has a moral duty to dissolve itself as an apartheid state. Holding Hamas accountable for any atrocities is a separate issue, and none of those atrocities can be used as justification for harm done to innocent Palestinians.
"Israel spends $$$ on expensive missile defense systems, rather than cheaply counter-striking to eliminate the threat, all because they value innocent Palestinian lives"
Israel takes tax money from the United States and uses our money to defend its apartheid state. Israel killed thousands of Palestinians before October 7th in various slaughter campaigns that Israeli politicians have called mowing the lawn. Israel cares about international opinion and particularly the United States support of their apartheid state. Which means they must be careful about killing too many Palestinians and torturing too many Palestinians because otherwise people like you wouldn't be as susceptible to believe and spread the pernicious and erroneous propaganda that you are right now.
"After he got exchanged along with hundreds of other terrorists for a single Israeli hostage, he thanked Israel for their moral decency by launching the greatest one-day war crime against the Jewish people since the Holocaust"
If Israel had moral decency it would not have established an apartheid state after multiple ethnic cleansing operations. No Palestinian owes the state of Israel any gratitude for seventy five years of subjugation and humiliation.
"Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza a long time ago. Evicted the few Jews remaining there. Exhumed Jewish cemeteries. They thought it would "buy quiet" and promote normalization and moderation. In hindsight, that looks like a foolish idea."
Israel never left Gaza completely. It continued to have effective control, including control over airspace and water. There's possibly no place on earth more surveilled than Gaza. Which is why the Israeli government knew the attacks on October 7th were going to happen before they did. They had blueprints exactly of what they were going to do. And not only they didn't stop it, but they permitted a festival where Hamas was planning to attack.
Israel has been trying to get all of Palestine since before it carried out its ethnic cleansing in 1948. For any action taken by Israel, it is usually safe to bet that it is motivated by a desire to conquer all of Palestine. You are providing the propaganda explanation. From hindsight, given the overtures to annex Gaza now, the idea makes sense. You seem to want to assign good intentions to the Israeli state when history has demonstrated that good intentions are rare for it.
"It is hard to imagine a clearer distinction of civilization vs barbarism on display here. Hamas enjoys vast popular support among Palestinians, no doubt nurtured by the legacy of Soviet anti-Zionist propaganda and the fusion of Islamist jihad with Palestinian nationalism."
Israel has never been civilized, and its current genocide is one of the most hideous displays of barbarism in the 21st century. One of the reasons that Hamas enjoys significant popular support is because Israel itself cultivated it.
"Hard to course correct when UNRWA schools and Hamas Mickey Mouse TV propaganda has children in its grips from the very beginning. Iran and Qatar will keep the money flowing and smile as more Palestinians die and Israel is forced into a perpetual war for survival"
And Israel helped that money flow so that Hamas could create that mickey mouse propaganda and make it even less possible for a two state solution to materialize.
"I look forward to the total destruction of Hamas, and the discrediting of everyone who would argue for a moral equivalence between Hamas and the IDF. On the other side of that, much like the total humiliation and destruction of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan, we might have the possibility of peace."
Comparing Hamas, a militia that needed to resort to hang gliders, to Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan is quite ridiculous. And unfortunately for Israel it's genocide is finally awakening much of the world and the people of the United States to its abominable regime. And as information becomes freely available on the internet the propaganda that you are regurgitating will lose its power and so will Israel.